Time Out Error or something else ....

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Beladorizid
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Thanks for taking the time to look at this.

I have been using SAB along with Giganews for over a year now with little to no problems but lately I have an issue I cant figure out. When everything is working, as it has for a long time, I will get sustained dload speeds of about 12 meg a second. Lately however the following happens. The file will be added to my SAB que and start downloading, only at about 4 meg a second however. Over the course of the next 30 seconds the speed drops and drops and drops until eventually it will stop. After a period of time, perhaps a couple minutes it may start up again and then do the same thing all over again but staying in the 1 meg to 500kb/ps range of speeds. Here is a snippet of log:

2012-08-26 12:10:55,266::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 19@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:10:55,266::INFO::[downloader:375] 10@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:10:56,280::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 102293.631867
2012-08-26 12:10:56,469::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 10@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:10:58,403::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=889lcBRXqhib9sfoodKE@JBinUp.local, bytes=398603, partnum=165, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:01,319::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 133017.638906
2012-08-26 12:11:04,361::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 20@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:04,361::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 39@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:04,361::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 26@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:06,390::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 52837.483498
2012-08-26 12:11:11,460::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 20988.192213
2012-08-26 12:11:16,529::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 8336.96427625
2012-08-26 12:11:18,558::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 5@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:21,599::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 3311.62267994
2012-08-26 12:11:25,655::INFO::[downloader:375] 31@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:25,655::INFO::[downloader:375] 11@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:26,670::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 1315.44816268
2012-08-26 12:11:26,825::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 31@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:26,825::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 11@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:28,371::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 4@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:28,417::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=MHw1JZA0YCjyNyZpJsg61@JBinUp.local, bytes=398763, partnum=174, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:28,433::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=HIXu4dvWSGOmeUz330OL1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398576, partnum=175, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:30,118::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=eqhNBdhgXsKgnD7eiX4F1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398880, partnum=178, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:30,243::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=JK24yTjko83rfJqRr9NX@JBinUp.local, bytes=398831, partnum=176, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:30,507::INFO::[downloader:375] 38@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:31,256::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 38@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:31,677::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 203002.48439
2012-08-26 12:11:32,691::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=4nryyUfrM6MOAn8SIAv@JBinUp.local, bytes=398444, partnum=192, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:33,362::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=24tAZh8KHMOqZzeaMo6@JBinUp.local, bytes=398580, partnum=190, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:33,408::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 6@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:33,736::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 22@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:36,420::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=LM4RwT9yYOZKNr1csS1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398571, partnum=193, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:36,684::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 263723.428382
2012-08-26 12:11:37,153::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=5KaJfWu0OF3ueXXTyDjV@JBinUp.local, bytes=398762, partnum=203, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:39,539::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=G7gBUcaU1PJpp0g6dNTB@JBinUp.local, bytes=398720, partnum=34, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:41,848::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 170470.21902
2012-08-26 12:11:46,918::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 67714.4611462
2012-08-26 12:11:49,960::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 35@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:49,960::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 30@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:51,989::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 26897.648709
2012-08-26 12:11:51,989::INFO::[downloader:375] 37@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:53,003::INFO::[downloader:375] 12@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:53,206::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 37@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:53,470::INFO::[downloader:375] 36@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:53,627::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 23@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:53,986::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 12@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:54,484::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 36@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:55,233::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=QMvFKkdI6H2bUTQ1KUfG@JBinUp.local, bytes=398772, partnum=253, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:55,404::INFO::[downloader:640] Thread 1@news.giganews.com:443: timed out
2012-08-26 12:11:57,167::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 130611.624046
2012-08-26 12:11:58,415::INFO::[downloader:375] 9@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:58,415::INFO::[downloader:375] 25@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:11:58,415::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=gHtZoK4NPAJwmGRvAwNw@JBinUp.local, bytes=398659, partnum=255, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:11:59,118::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 9@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:59,148::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 25@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:11:59,446::INFO::[downloader:375] 34@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:12:00,178::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 34@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:12:00,444::INFO::[downloader:375] 14@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:12:00,786::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=6ijbDDNx45uEmu9Fk5no@JBinUp.local, bytes=398599, partnum=5, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:01,223::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 14@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:12:01,520::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=XpOUZjUL8AWT4MjnLYN41@JBinUp.local, bytes=398464, partnum=9, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:02,035::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=aQkjGQ6tflptMV4VYMp1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398664, partnum=10, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:02,176::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 384939.106455
2012-08-26 12:12:02,332::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=xXldCv6uwRPfbmTouQp51@JBinUp.local, bytes=398613, partnum=7, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:02,503::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=zA0nXb204Hc8Eb9Baf12@JBinUp.local, bytes=398468, partnum=11, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:02,596::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=NfPrtU46W3Vq6jQPiXrn@JBinUp.local, bytes=398416, partnum=6, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:02,861::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=BMwSbSWkN8PEpyEB6g6j@JBinUp.local, bytes=398534, partnum=8, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:02,956::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=tC6QE2we2gi6GtXTjqw1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398552, partnum=13, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:03,095::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=1LJV2NHUtabgq9TkaVL3@JBinUp.local, bytes=398483, partnum=12, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:04,346::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=N1gqeT92enDkWNa9kE19@JBinUp.local, bytes=398513, partnum=17, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:04,892::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=0J9inddzyGHcmRxW6zX7@JBinUp.local, bytes=398424, partnum=15, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:05,111::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=vX4C7vJys6IG2VkhjXS4@JBinUp.local, bytes=398735, partnum=16, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:05,921::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=J4l8Hea3BjMv4R7xZGUA@JBinUp.local, bytes=398509, partnum=14, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:05,937::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=Hbfc5fuQpYtAZJrDFy46@JBinUp.local, bytes=398717, partnum=18, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:05,984::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=Tgubc31tCmHNAJlnV0U9@JBinUp.local, bytes=398387, partnum=19, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:06,108::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=GBWgBz3SdwK7rURvc9pn@JBinUp.local, bytes=398473, partnum=20, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:06,624::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=cxH40GkR2pb8fD99k6zv@JBinUp.local, bytes=398656, partnum=22, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:07,045::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=wDZrgchrEIEtgEJuZUkQ@JBinUp.local, bytes=398518, partnum=65, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:07,076::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=wxSj1JJRtMbmJEDkKXKW@JBinUp.local, bytes=398645, partnum=23, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:07,170::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=nUerlNhdXepHsavxZkhM@JBinUp.local, bytes=398718, partnum=25, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:07,186::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 982838.997519
2012-08-26 12:12:07,186::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=DeYDU0vZQMFrb1t73zOq@JBinUp.local, bytes=398671, partnum=24, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:07,779::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=2XxpAAjEdwgC7Wh2WeuA1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398805, partnum=28, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:08,028::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=q35opiMhPsldViPGJnjN@JBinUp.local, bytes=398766, partnum=29, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:08,278::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=AHSs4hOQYeIYaD5cWwvF@JBinUp.local, bytes=398596, partnum=30, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:08,403::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=SoGjak4DOVmNGsoqx0y2@JBinUp.local, bytes=398549, partnum=21, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:08,573::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=BuphV8zFR8Dv4Bt6gbSH@JBinUp.local, bytes=398712, partnum=27, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:08,917::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=t97dCaBBDiQSRPPMBTNR@JBinUp.local, bytes=398919, partnum=32, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:09,806::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=n4G3peiwpGEvYJQtD8nN1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398702, partnum=31, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:09,822::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=UTpqVMMgItCJHcHECKzd@JBinUp.local, bytes=398774, partnum=33, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:09,852::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=IVrboLs1w5zeEATELhNC@JBinUp.local, bytes=398711, partnum=35, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:11,319::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=msCrbxdkQdDcDY8EjhD8@JBinUp.local, bytes=398772, partnum=26, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:11,615::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=ntcwclZFEzwb8WdzDvnE1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398645, partnum=34, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:11,631::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=aIFJwhmvAMnk1iXJbmN51@JBinUp.local, bytes=398649, partnum=36, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:11,819::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=DfVMnSP0e1t0Imv621uI1@JBinUp.local, bytes=398789, partnum=37, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:12,193::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 973161.886863
2012-08-26 12:12:13,036::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=Z6mrzq1tXyiQZH0bO7LS@JBinUp.local, bytes=398836, partnum=41, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:13,128::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=dwGgBOF4mPhY3oMnloYX@JBinUp.local, bytes=398785, partnum=42, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:13,940::INFO::[downloader:375] 3@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:12:14,845::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 3@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:12:15,734::INFO::[downloader:375] 8@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:12:16,624::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 8@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:12:16,733::INFO::[downloader:375] 13@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:12:17,263::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 594275.302926
2012-08-26 12:12:17,746::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 13@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:12:18,792::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=pGR6n53ssTbVNcPHVDp4@JBinUp.local, bytes=398682, partnum=39, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:19,056::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=MXm5YA9YZiExARwT0nbI@JBinUp.local, bytes=398677, partnum=44, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:19,509::INFO::[downloader:375] 33@news.giganews.com:443: Initiating connection
2012-08-26 12:12:19,822::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=yBhuqoTkphlpK9wagAqB@JBinUp.local, bytes=398394, partnum=47, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:20,382::INFO::[downloader:566] Connecting 33@news.giganews.com:443 finished
2012-08-26 12:12:20,976::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=XzofL6ZvBJbWZvBP0sqZ@JBinUp.local, bytes=398687, partnum=40, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:21,101::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=lDcgj2xIuzwz7y82utg21@JBinUp.local, bytes=398530, partnum=43, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:21,210::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=GVDRF4ph7W89jknGe7WC@JBinUp.local, bytes=398517, partnum=51, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:21,677::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=QuE0AO3tGTJTXrU4BzaB@JBinUp.local, bytes=398879, partnum=46, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:21,927::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=6bmxyPbeOsigMtn4tDKC@JBinUp.local, bytes=398776, partnum=50, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:22,270::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 681392.054159
2012-08-26 12:12:22,926::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=OEgbyHdOBx61WNq38t5@JBinUp.local, bytes=398583, partnum=56, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:22,989::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=SQYOrGYmTDhsi5rmdmaE@JBinUp.local, bytes=398619, partnum=54, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:23,394::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=Hmm8QOwNlMxvEN2vFhn6@JBinUp.local, bytes=398732, partnum=49, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:24,673::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=jrhFzQy7lZ4398FXCCe3@JBinUp.local, bytes=398429, partnum=48, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:24,766::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=84rxiVNsxTXWs1edtBX@JBinUp.local, bytes=398723, partnum=58, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:25,157::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=JwAaiBkemkm22vNGyfR2@JBinUp.local, bytes=398718, partnum=52, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:25,921::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=i1ULrJ1Kf93PEM8jiGp@JBinUp.local, bytes=398532, partnum=61, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:27,045::DEBUG::[decoder:97] Decoding <Article: article=M4rz2NYTmV8Uyi1BDz58@JBinUp.local, bytes=398567, partnum=63, art_id=None>
2012-08-26 12:12:27,325::DEBUG::[bpsmeter:250] bps: 627115.440867

If anyone can help I would really appreciate it.
User avatar
sander
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Joined: January 22nd, 2008, 2:22 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by sander »

What if you lower the amount of connections to 10?
Beladorizid
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Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

I tried that. No change (if anything slower)
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sander
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Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by sander »

Beladorizid wrote:I tried that. No change (if anything slower)
And what if you use another NZB download program (NNTPgrab or NZBget)? Using another program you can find out whether the problem is in SABnzbd, or outside SABnzbd (your LAN/WLAN, router, ISP, newsprovider).
Beladorizid
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Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Same speeds in NNTP although it doesnt drop to 0kb it sustains between 20kb/s and 400kb/s
User avatar
sander
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Joined: January 22nd, 2008, 2:22 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by sander »

Beladorizid wrote:Same speeds in NNTP although it doesnt drop to 0kb it sustains between 20kb/s and 400kb/s
So, not a problem with SABnzbd, but with LAN/WLAN, router, ISP, newsprovider ... ?

On which platform (Linux, OSX, Windows, NAS, ...) are you?

EDIT:

PS: your news provider Giganews provides a VPN service (see http://www.giganews.com/vyprvpn/). I read in this forum that you only get 5 Mbps or so, but it's worth a try: If you get 5 Mbps, it's your ISP throttling news connections.
Beladorizid
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Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Computer is running Windows Home Server 2011, 8 gig memory 64 bit version.
Main Newsprovider is Giganews
ISP is Shaw Calgary
Beladorizid
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Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Will try the VPN when I get home from grocery shopping. Thanks for all the help so far, will keep you updated
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sander
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Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by sander »

A side-step: what does http://test-ipv6.com/ say about your IPv6? On a plain Windows Vista/7/8, you should have IPv6. If so, you could try a few IPv6 newsserver (for free)
Beladorizid
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Posts: 10
Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Vyper VPN has no effect. Same problem, same speed degradation after a few seconds etc.

That weblink: Pass all IP4 tests but no IP6
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shypike
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Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by shypike »

You're not on one of these North-American ISPs that have a "feature" called PowerBoost?
That's where they give you a high speed on any new connection for a short time (or medium amount of data).
Beladorizid
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Posts: 10
Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Nope. I have had consistant dload speeds up until a short while ago. And my internet plan does give me 12 meg per second dload speeds.
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sander
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Joined: January 22nd, 2008, 2:22 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by sander »

Beladorizid wrote:Nope. I have had consistant dload speeds up until a short while ago. And my internet plan does give me 12 meg per second dload speeds.
Sure? http://www.shaw.ca/Support/Business/Int ... owerboost/ and http://www.shaw.ca/Support/Internet/Fea ... scription/ say
What is PowerBoost?
PowerBoost is a five- to 20-second burst of download speed. We temporarily increase your available bandwidth when you're downloading files.

PowerBoost is available with Shaw High-Speed and Shaw Extreme service plans.
Beladorizid
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Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Beladorizid
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: August 26th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Re: Time Out Error or something else ....

Post by Beladorizid »

Ok just got off the phone with my ISP. Everything is fine from Modem outward. Did a speedtest on my laptop and its all good. Its going to be something on the dedicated SAB dload machine. Wether hardware or software ... we shall see
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